Shotguns (non-Ithaca)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:44 am
Thought I would post an update on the PM5 "work in progress" As previously stated I struggled a bit with the 'rock and lock' magazine system. Having bevelled the rear catch housing to enhance the release characteristics, I moved on to the catches themselves. Wishing to make the system fully ambidextrous, I attached a section of aluminium " u" channel to the magazine release lever and shaped it to enable either trigger finger (left or right hand) to simply push forward (on a serrated edge) whilst not changing hand position on the grip. This process speeds up the reload as the empty mag does not have to be rocked forward with the non-trigger hand pressing the mag release. The magazine now simply rolls out and drops away while at the same time, the new magazine can be grabbed for loading. Additionally, I extended the action release button to a central position within the mag release 'box' and just forward and below the trigger guard.
The next, and slightly more complex modification is to fabricate a replacement combined feed ramp and forward mag lock with a spring loaded catch and tapered mag well. This will enable a 'straight in' mag loading technique. I am practising my milling techniques to get this 100% right.
Incidentally, at no point am I drilling or altering the original firearm, all parts can be removed and the gun returned to stock configuration. Parts are either clamped in place or use existing fittings and fastenings, I do not wish to destroy the gun with my engineering!
My only problem at the moment is that I used a rubberised paint on my parts which while effective is not very pretty!

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Another experimental modification is the addition of a forward assist spring which is not so powerful as to make the rearward movement at all difficult, but it makes the return to battery slick, easy and fast
Last edited by impala59 on Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:49 am
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:52 am
Vlhrest (4).JPG
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Vspring.JPG
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Whilst modifying I seem to keep coming up with all sorts of problems/solutions and ideas. I have fitted a picatinny rail to the fore-end and will experiment with a stubby vertical fore-grip with rubber rail covers over the exposed parts of the rail
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:50 pm
To continue the modifications, I needed to change the "rock and lock" magazine location system. I made, from a block of aluminium, a replacement feed ramp and forward mag lock. I replaced the solid lock with a spring steel plate, backed up with 2 stainless steel coil springs. At the top of the spring plate I epoxied a hardened roll-pin. Above this I epoxied a stainless steel stop plate to protect the alloy.
What this achieves is this, 1, the mag can be pushed straight in, latching solidly front and back. 2, the roll-pin allows the empty mag to roll out of engagement when the rear catch is disengaged with the mag release lever. Interestingly, the magazine seems to be located more solidly than stock with this modification, the front springs holding everything nice and secure.
I continued by making a simple tapered well arrangement with aluminium side plates fitted with brass tapered plates inside. this helps with mag location for 'first time' engagement and protects the original receiver opening from damage. I held this all in place with M5 hex bolts and ny-loc nuts (to pre-set tightness and prevent crushing the receiver and trigger group)
No drilling or cutting of the original firearm has been done, nor will it ever be done, returning to stock takes about 5 minutes.
It all works and while it is not too pretty, this is very much a hand made prototype to improve the gun for IPSC competition. There have been some unexpected bonuses too, the polished aluminium ramp feeds the cartridges much more smoothly than the stock plastic unit, also the secure mag location enhances feed reliability. After a period of further testing and development I hope to machine these parts from stainless steel for improved strength and reliability
PM5 Ramp.JPG
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The main part, feed ramp and forward catch
pm5 ramp 1.JPG
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With the original feed ramp
pm5mod1.JPG
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Simple mag well
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:57 pm
pm5mod3.JPG
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The polished feed ramp in situ
pm5mod2.JPG
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Solid mag retention

I hope you have found this interesting, any ideas for improvements gratefully received!
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:47 pm
OK so here's one to make you wince!
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A real unwanted stray, this one! Stevens Mod 77F. The most horrendous welding I have come across on a firearm, seemingly done in situ with the wood catching fire too! Fortunately I have a spare fore-end tube and wood (luckily Stevens and Savage parts have some interchangeability) The Internals, whilst all there, seem to have been glued together and are currently languishing in a gasoline bath. I am a sucker for these oldies and this has a 2 digit serial number similar to my Savage 30.
stevens 77a.JPG
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Still it was very cheap and I do love bringing them back to life!
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:16 pm
OK, so, confession and admission time!
Apparently, Physics and predominately Newton's 3rd law also applies to me!
Whilst the initial trials with the Valtro PM5 box fed pump seemed successful, in actual use it was somewhat of a disaster. I had focussed heavily on fast mag changes, but mass effect, inertia and unreliable spring tensions conspired to defeat me in my quest. Its no good having a fast change if the full mag is auto ejected at random!
Magazine retention seemed at first to be good, but the forces involved in the firing process, primarily recoil, felt recoil and the shooters grip and stance all contribute to altering the movement and therefore any equal and opposite movement of the gun and its constituent parts.
I had made the ambidextrous mag release so big that it had enough inertia from its own weight to self release. The springs which replaced the front solid rock and lock block became unreliable, it actually appeared when reported to me by an observer that the mag would let go front and back at the same time and drop straight down unlike what I was looking for which was a roll off the front lock.
Anyway, I have now passed the hybrid stage of push in, roll out, it simply cannot work reliably. I am currently working on a full magwell modification but am at the moment on the opposite side of the field with great retention but jamming magazines. I do not want to compromise and am working slower and hopefully thinking clearer now. I still feel that this shotgun has great potential and will continue my development whilst having a new respect for those who can tune and modify to perfection!
Watch this space
Last edited by impala59 on Tue Oct 18, 2016 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2016 9:17 am
Very interesting work...well done so far.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:59 pm
Well a few days have passed and I have completed the further development of the PM5 saga. Whilst it has always been my aim to be able to return the gun to stock, I must admit to a couple of minor infractions. Although I would never drill or file in the pressure areas, I felt justified in a little magazine fettling, they were so individual where welded and formed that I needed to standardise the fit. Some would jam solid while others would slip through, upon adjustment to my work different ones jammed! Score 1 for a friend who suggested numbering the mags! Prior to continuing, I re-assembled in stock form and tried the first magazine that I worked on, it actually inserted and ejected better than before so I felt justified in gently bringing all the mags to the same dimensions. The Valtro PM5 is, in its stock form, a rattly piece of kit with very wide tolerances, I needed to tighten everything up for successful operation as a competition gun. My second "adjustment" was to drill a 4mm hole in the magazine release lever so as to facilitate a lightweight ambidextrous attachment, again, justified by it having no detrimental effect either in function or aesthetically when in stock mode.
Of course there are no standardised mag wells made for the Valtro, I looked at the Saiga one and decided that it would need so much cutting that it would be easier and far cheaper to fabricate, using materials I already had, with a view to manufacturing a "pretty" one once I had worked out all the bugs (and there were many, with more to find i'm sure)
Anyway here is the working prototype, a composite of aluminium, plastic and steel :

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The main mag well is formed of two sections of cut aluminium box section, one inside the other to arrive at the correct dimensions. this is then attached to the recovered side-plates from the earlier version. All held together with M5 machine screws tapped and thread-locked in place. A plastic outer cover hides my machine and file marks. Mounted within the box are three "bales" type small cabinet latches with spring loaded 6mm ball bearings. These guide the magazine thru the well by running in the rim line on each side and on the rib at the back. Due to there now being no forward mag retention shelf, the magazine needs to be kept pushed forward so as to remain in position and to ensure reliable feeding. The bearings help but the springs are inadequate when fighting the pressure of the magazine spring when the bolt is closed (top shell pressing on the underside of the bolt carrier)
This foxed me for a while and I tried many ways to combat the pressure of the magazine spring to no avail. Then whilst jamming a piece of scrap in the rear of the well so as to cycle the action, it dawned on me, a small brass ramp epoxied to the rear of the magazine to engage as the magazine located and latched, problem solved! The function is now rock solid when the magazine is in place and lets go nice and smoothly when the mag release catch is pushed. I added a steel strength plate where the new magazine ramp engages to prevent the aluminium from fracturing.
Another area I addressed was the trigger housing front locating pin looseness. As previously stated, I am using the existing fittings to mount my mods and there was some random movement at the front of the trigger unit ( which also includes the rear mag catch and release lever) I replaced the spring pin tube with a tight fitting plastic tube which I then tapped to M5 for my mounting bolt, again nothing permanent but a fix which cured all the looseness at the trigger/mag release.
The reworked feed ramp (which was a noticeable improvement on the stock item in the previous incarnation) was modified from the earlier version by cutting off all the spring area and replacing with a solid block of aluminium with stainless steel wear faces. the front face of the mag well connects flush to this block. (picture on next page due to 3 pic limit)
All seems to be in order now, just need some range time to thoroughly check everything out. I am hopeful and hope that my confidence in this gun will bear fruit, its a great shooter, just trying to make it competitive. I'll update when trials done (wife and work permitting!)
Last edited by impala59 on Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:07 pm
Continued...........diagram of the front magazine locator and feed ramp differences
maglock conv.jpg
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:30 am
To continue the PM5 saga, I am happy to report that I now have it working reliably in its 4th version.
I have dispensed with the rear mag release, this was causing all sorts of problems as it moves in the same plane as the recoil and inertia of firing. I used the mag release housing to mount the new rear wall of the magwell. This is keyhole fitted in place and retained by the original mag release pivot drift pin. (This is in keeping with my stated intention of being able to return the gun to stock configuration if ever need be) The forward end of the magwell is one piece , comprising the locating lug, feed ramp, magazine stop and retaining pin hole. This is carved from a 1" aluminium billet and imparts strength to the whole magwell. It is a little bit "Tonka" but better too strong than too weak. Using this "one piece" construction has enabled me to eliminate the unsightly side plates of the earlier versions) The right hand side is 5mm aluminium plate for strength and rigidity. The left hand side is a laminate of 2mm and 3mm sheet to facilitate the entry of the magazine with its new side block. This block is brass, 25x10x3mm and is located on the magazines via one of the original peep holes with a countersunk hex screw, a touch of 2 part epoxy prevents rotation. The Magazine release catch on the left side is an spring loaded oversize 1" (25mm) lever which connects to a block which protrudes into the well 3mm. this gives a contact area of 75 sq mm with the magazine so retention is 100%. The magazines are now held securely, and, more importantly, consistently in the right place for accurate feeding and reliability. I have added to the mag followers a small plastic ramp which also assists with getting the right approach angle to the chamber. Another modification is the "Cactus Arms" mag extension. I found that my original extensions were a little on the flimsy side (not best suitable in the knockabout world of combat/practical shotgun!) and in fact I had a few magazine spring assisted fall-aparts which were embarrassing to say the least! The "Cactus Arms" unit is a solidly made ABS extension for the Saiga/Bora shotguns and was modified with a small aluminium plate to compensate for my slightly narrower magazines.
To close, I have yet to finally cosmetically finish and paint the magwell but with more testing and use to come I shall leave that until later. I may try and incorporate an ambidextrous release but will need to think long and hard about how to achieve that whilst keeping reliability. For now, I'm enjoying the fruits of my labours, but no doubt more tinkering will be done in the future, I love a challenge!
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Right hand side, cleaner fitting, albeit a touch oversize
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Left hand side, showing with "Cactus Arms" ext . giving 10 round capacity
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The oversize mag release catch, follower assist ramp(blue), mag catch block (brass)
Last edited by impala59 on Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:33 am
Due to 3 picture restriction continued from above;
Diagram of the development from stock to current of the crucial piece of the puzzle
maglock conv.jpg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:41 am
impala59 wrote:This is carved from a 1" aluminium billet and imparts strength to the whole magwell. It is a little bit "Tonka" but better too strong than too weak.

Ever see the sci-fi TV series, "Firefly"? Your gun reminds me of the weapons in that series. (You don't call your PM5, "Vera", do you?)

It looks like you're havin' a shed-load of fun with that gun.

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:16 am
Its been a mission that's for sure, my original plan was to have a box fed pump which would then trump the box fed auto boys when they got all ammo sensitive which they have a wont to do. Now the PM5 is not at all ammo shy, it will digest anything including reloads. Getting the mag loading right though was a lesson in measure twice cut once, although I should preface that with think four times first!
All I need now is a competition where ammunition becomes an issue and I can clean up!!
Seriously though, I still rate the PM5 for its simplicity, it was not designed as a competition gun, rather like the M37 and in the old days my beloved Colt Python. Nevertheless, its now able to perform as I wish and the only shaky part is the nut on the butt!
Rather like yourself I tend not to go the obvious way to my shooting but I enjoy it immensely, long may us quacks continue! Been looking at a martini action Greener GP, I should not have watched that rerun of Zulu............Front rank fire! Rear rank fire! Third rank fire! Team clay shooting with 3 birds flying anyone?

PS the PM5 and my Sabattii 1822 have been named The Fuglies by The Pigeon watch forum and the Frankenstein sisters by my club peers
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:59 am
PM5 cont...........A few practice sessions have confirmed the reliability and ruggedness of the magazine well and system(happily!) Unfortunately, the 552 sight that I was also testing fell off due to a poor fixing of the picatinny rail (now remedied) but I digress, the large 'slap' release button is easily reached and the mags drop out smoothly. I felt though, that a little finesse would assist when carefully aimed shots or restricted space dictated a slightly different approach. I reasoned that an ambidextrous release was not really feasible if I wanted to retain the simple, reliable mechanism. What I came up with is a simple lever attached to the top of the existing catch, (if it ain't broke don't fix it) which I can simply push up with my trigger finger to drop the magazine. I figured that for the amount of times that I would be shooting left-handed, I could live with the original catch.
Anyway, I will test it out this weekend and hope to report back in the positive
DSC_0050.JPG
lever attached to original (left side)
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DSC_0051.JPG
right side (lever in uppermost position)
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DSC_0056.JPG
short reach for trigger finger
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:42 am
Real nice setup Impala...I'm impressed
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:08 pm
To continue, I am happy to report that all is well with the PM5 magazine system. From loading the magazines to inserting, feeding, ejecting and unloading, all functions are simple effective and reliable.
So begins the next phase, a sighting system that suits me. As I am right-handed but left eye dominant (some would call cack-handed!) I needed to find a way to fast target acquisition, accuracy on the move and again simple reliability. I use on my .22 an offset red dot that works for me so I have tried to duplicate that with sights and hardware that I have available and that I know are suitably shock-resistant. Also, as there is weak hand shooting in my chosen sport (where my left eye dominance is actually a help) I needed a bore line sight also. I already have the bore-line laser fitted under the barrel for close-in instinctive shots (it also is effective in smoky or dusty courses of fire where the visible beam makes target location easier)
What I have come up with, and will field test soon is the following; A relatively crude but simple and effective binocular sight system consisting of an offset green dot for my left eye and a bore-line red dot for my right eye. With the natural cant of my head when in the aim, I can see both dots. They converge at about 12 yards to a single point, together with the laser. Most of our steel plate targets are at between 10 and 15 yards so aiming is really easy with both eyes open and full peripheral vision. I don't know if this is innovative but I have not seen anything similar(maybe the forum members know of something similar?) I have attempted to demonstrate with the accompanying photos on a sheet of paper at 6 feet, which basically from my point of view at that close range gives an upside-down triangle, green dot top left, red dot top right and laser centre bottom. For left handed shooting , the green dot is redundant. Everything is known shock-proof and solidly mounted, just maybe looks a bit weird!
pm5sights (7).JPG
The current set-up
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pm5sights (5).JPG
left eye view, right handed shot
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pm5sights (6).JPG
right eye view, right handed shot
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With apologies for my lack of photographic skill, but I hope that you get the idea
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:35 pm
binvis.png
illustration of (theoretical) solution
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 12:53 am
So. Are we going to see your monstrosity ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H thing of beauty in use during an RSC open match at Popham, this year?

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:15 am
Hopefully, when is the next date?
As I learned last year I need to get in early
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:55 am
impala59 wrote:Hopefully, when is the next date?

I just had a quick look at our calendar and it says that the next Open is on Sunday, April 30th.

Now, *usually*, the Crew Shoot is two weeks before. However, *this* time, it's on 2nd April. I don't know why. I mention the Crew Shoot because we usually have one or two places available for non-crew competitors who can't make the main shoot.

As I learned last year I need to get in early

Yeah, it's a bit popular. The site looks pretty much like this when the bluebells are out:

Image

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:25 am
Hi Mark
Entry fee duly paid for 30th
Look forward to seeing you there
Roland
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:52 am
impala59 wrote:Entry fee duly paid for 30th
Look forward to seeing you there

Oh, well done!

Unless sommat crops up, I should be crewing. (If it's nice, my cap'll say "ChAoS"; if it not, I'll probably have a wide-brimmed hat on of some sort.)

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:57 am
A Brief update on my 'Binocular' sight experiment for the PM5.
It seems to work, up until the small (bore-line) sight gave up (battery shift, need to address that) I was finding that I could acquire and engage targets much easier and it felt very natural. I think that higher quality sights would be a vast improvement but nonetheless I am happy to move along this road. As an after-thought I had fitted, in case of a total failure, some flip up iron sights and these work fairly well too, particularly for slug.
Downside? well the gun definitely looks a bit strange. Some people like it, purists think it an abomination! Also, with the master eye sight 2" left of the bore, in some courses of fire it could contact or be obscured by the side of the barricade, if shooting left handed, but, as this is competition and not the real world I can live with that, if the briefing states 'left shoulder' I will be able to remove that sight for that course of fire
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:10 am
You didn't have anything to do with the design of *this*, did you? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U682yOpNafg

Regards,

Mark.
Came late in life to shooting but is making up for lost time...
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