Shotguns (non-Ithaca)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:12 pm
Well the Savage 30E is back together and all is functioning. The parts I bought were all the non- licence relevant (UK) parts of a scrap gun, so I did not get the receiver, barrel or mag tube. I took a bit of a chance but I reckoned that if all else was no good, then the extractors and screws that I needed would be ok. Some odd differences but most was the same luckily! The bolt was different in appearance, being cylinder shaped where the original has an amount of material machined off at an angle (where it shows in the ejector port) However, the new bolt fitted and functions perfectly. The slide was a different shape and so was the slide stop, as long as the 2 parts are kept as a pair, either pair works fine with good lock up. The trigger group is much better than the original with stronger springs and less wear, I will strip that to component level and refinish before fitting.
Unfortunately when I removed the stock, I found a previously missed crack where it mates with the receiver. The replacement stock is not so pretty but will suffice while repairs and refinishing is carried out on the original. The new fore-end just binds solid on the mag tube, a bit of investigation is called for there. So, with the original fore-end on, the gun is once more able to put lead down range, its a bit of a mixed look at the moment but this is only the beginning of the restoration. Some live function tests when I can find the time and then onward with the project
Regards
Roland
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 5:13 pm
East meets West
Well I've been shopping again! I bought these two at auction for less than a carton of Marlboro (for both) a Remington 1894 B grade s/n 123188 all matching numbers and a Baikal IJ58M. Both are non ejectors, which suits me fine for keeping the cases clean for reloading. Both, when deep cleaned have spotless bores and are fully functional. A little blue wear on both and some minor pitting. The Russian was ready for the field after its clean-up. The 1894 had the beginnings of a crack through the Prince of Wales grip, fortunately it was dry with no ingress of oil. I used some waterproof Gorilla wood glue and clamped up. It set solid but to strengthen I epoxied two steel roll pins, one large one that the middle lower tang screw passes through (at 45 degrees to the crack) and one smaller at 90 degrees to the crack. The checkering had been partially sanded or worn off so I removed the remainder and will consider whether or not to re-checker (breaks out in sweat of fear!) I refinished with Danish oil and super glue and sanding dust and I am quite pleased with the result. I think that this will become my favourite field gun as it seems to fit me perfectly. In the long term, I would maybe like to replace the stock and have been looking at macongunstocks.com who can supply a machine cut stock for me to fit and finish. I wonder if any of you gentlemen (and ladies of course!) know of this company and its products. I would also be grateful if anyone could help date my 1894, I guess its pretty early as s/n started at 100000 I believe. Anyway, 2 cheapies, one a definite keeper, I believe a bargain was had :D

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Last edited by impala59 on Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:39 am
NIce job, good work!
--Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:46 pm
Thank you Sir!
That really means something coming from you. The 1894 stock is really a nice piece of wood and I am glad to have saved it. At about 120 years old, this wood (and gun) is real history. My techniques have improved and my other projects (many) will benefit from the experience. Its odd how this gun got me fired up to complete it, I have heard people saying that certain guns speak to them, but other than my love of 37's which I have had since before I can remember, I think that this one spoke to me. My projects tend to get done on rainy days and in fits and starts, this one I had to see through to completion, like it was urgent. I had to resist putting the next coat of oil on until the next day so that it would soak in properly, and running over it with 2000grade w/d was more a caress than sanding! Unfortunately, work has meant that I have not taken it out yet, I am seriously looking forward to that day. Soon I hope!
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:07 pm
MY pleasure. It looks great. I know patience is the ultimate virtue. I've videos of the Purdey action makers and I figure if they can file an action for hours at a time taking sub-minute amounts of steel off then I can at least be patient enough to a job properly.

Get yourself some 0000 steel wool for a final light buff. Key word is light but it can really smooth out a finish.
0000 also works well on recoil pads and finish it up with a little Vaseline to put a sheen on it. But go lightly
to avoid scars.
--Jim
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 6:23 am
I worked the oil in with 0000 and following your advice have just given it a light buff with same, can't find the Vaseline, will have to wait until the boss gets home, she tends to hide stuff that can be used on my guns! (there's not a polishing cloth to be found anywhere)
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:09 am
Excellent!

Get yourself some really high quality chamois rags and use those. I soak one in a rust preventative and wipe my guns down after a day's shoot.

I get mine here

http://www.chamois.co.nz/products/chamois-leather
--Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:05 pm
Will do! Good to find a recommended source for chamois as I also need to replace the ones I use for car/bike cleaning.
Great info as always, much more than I ever thought I would get from Ithaca owners! Incidentally, I heard back from the really nice guys at Remington.com and they dated my 1894 to 1902, so 114 years old and still going strong, how many other things made in that year can still perform the same job as when they were new?
I will keep a look out for an early Ithaca double methinks!
However a friend has my holy grail.......a 1937 model 37 thousand dollar gun, three colour gold engraving, the most beautiful Monte Carlo stock, in absolutely mint condition. Just need a bit of a bank loan........
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:30 pm
MY pleasure!

They are good quality and they have great prices for shipping. You can use them for anything. I know I do.

114 years old eh? Doesn't look a day over 50! Those old guns were used and used and used and used and if you notice, the same ones stand the test of time. Built to last and perform they are. That's how you can tell the best ones from the run of the mill. How many old ones are out there and in good condition.

My dream gun would be if Ithaca made an equivalent of The Beretta EELL SO3.
Affording it is another matter.
--Jim
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2016 5:02 pm
I acquired these two as payment of an old debt, they were both in a dreadful condition, the bolt on the 1187 would not even move back! It seemed as though some one had been shooting it then packed it with some sort of grease (without cleaning it first!!) and then put it away. The forend has a full length longitudinal crack and the stock has more dents than a demolition derby. I glued up the forend and dug out an old synthetic stock, but then a shooting colleague turned up a synth forend. this will allow me to work on both pieces of the wood while still being able to enjoy the gun. I eased the gun apart over 3 days and after a serious component level deep clean she came back to life, the only part needed was a new gas seal. It cycles 28g 24g and 21g cartridges in any mix faultlessly. A question if I may, what should I use to remove the factory finish on the stock (I believe that it is a DuPont hard lacquer) and can the pistol grip cap be removed? It is my intention to give this multi-choke Remington lefty a good oil finish, its a great shooter and deserves to shine in the looks department too.
The other gun is an F Sarriugarte double "The Aylestone Gun" and was likewise treated to a serious clean, again I am looking at a nice oil treatment on the wood. I believe that it is a 1970's Spanish gun made for the Aylestone Gun Co. Probably not worth too much but comes to the shoulder nicely and will look good when in the field.

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:34 pm
There are several kinds of 1187 grip caps. some are screwed in and glued and others are just glued in with guide pegs. The ones with the white diamond had the screw under the diamond. You have to drill out under the diamond to get to it. the one with the "R" is glued down. It is a major bitch to remove, trust me. You need to work a very thin blade under and work it loose. Odds are you will break it.
I suggest you get a suitable replacement ready.

As for removing the old hard finish, I'm no stocker but those who are tell me that Citristrip works best on the hard Remington, browning and WInchester finishes. I don't know if you can get it in the UK but here it is.

http://www.amazon.com/Citri-Strip-QCG73 ... go-ffsb-20


If you encounter any old gun oil stains, use a hair dryer to pull it out of the wood and wipe it off. the heat opens the pores and raises the old oil.

Those Spanish gun might not have much in the way of caché but they are generally well made and have a good fit. Just some gun snobs have a "thing" where unless it is German, Italian or English it is no good.
--Jim
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 6:04 pm
Hi Jim thanks for your interest and comments. Citristrip is available from amazon.co.uk at.....£60 a quart!!!
that's about $90. I have ordered from amazon .com (US) for $20 including international shipping. I think that waiting 10 days or so is worth the difference. I have the cap that is glued in (of course!) so will endeavour to remove very carefully while I am waiting for my Citristrip. A replacement is available from Brownells UK for about $9 with "local" shipping at $15. The worlds gone crazy!
I agree with you about Spanish guns, I have had a few and they were all tight on the face, well made workmanlike guns. For me though, I think one side by side is enough and I am really enjoying my old Remington double.
for the abused guns support group, I present my 1187!!

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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:44 am
[quote="ravengunsmith"] Odds are you will break it.


Yeah I broke it! came away clean one side, just the minute leverage of a razor blade was enough to crack the other side. I'm thinking to maybe replace with a hand-formed and engraved piece of mahogany and possibly mahogany butt plate too.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:54 am
It looks like a nice piece of wood, definitely will worth the effort to remove that old cracked and broken finish.

Not surprised you broke it. They used a hot hide glue that got very brittle with age.
Same for the plastic but to a lesser degree. besides, glue is cheaper than screws
--Jim
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:57 am
impala59 wrote:
ravengunsmith wrote: Odds are you will break it.


Yeah I broke it! came away clean one side, just the minute leverage of a razor blade was enough to crack the other side. I'm thinking to maybe replace with a hand-formed and engraved piece of mahogany and possibly mahogany butt plate too.



I suggest you put in two small pins, top and bottom on your cap. This will allow you to use a screw and not have it shift. They only have to go down about 2-3 MM
--Jim
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:15 am
My latest acquisition has arrived. My Valtro PM5. I have fitted it with a Shield dot and circle optic sight, under-barrel laser and I've been modifying the magazines to increase capacity past the 7 round only factory option. I'm looking forward to learning this shotgun in competition, it seems quite possibly to be, mechanically, the simplest gun I have ever come across, I hope that translates to reliability. Together with my other new gun (another 37) I am a very happy bunny!

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:26 pm
Short update, whilst this really is the most simple of guns, I have found a couple of adjustments that needed to be done. Dry running with inerts and break free (my usual new gun regime) showed up a minor feed issue which was eliminated by a slight re-profile of the feed ramp between mag and chamber (interestingly it was a similar mod to that on my '65 '37, a minor square lip.) secondly the trigger group was a touch too loose in the receiver for my liking, so a shim plate either side of 0.2mm and its solid and slick now. Looking forward to some range time. Only issue with me, is the rock and lock mag load and unload but I'm getting there
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:40 pm
Having managed to break my new (to me) 37, I had the opportunity to run a few rounds through the PM5. It is a nicely balanced, light weight (makes my 37 featherlight seem heavy!) easy shooting shot gun. It turned a few heads as it is quite a rare beast over here. Working up this gun will be a fairly long process as it is, to all intents and purposes primarily a military gun designed for, I believe guarding and close quarters work in confined spaces such as ships (the French navy is one user) To comply with UK regulations the barrel is 24", the most common military version is 16". I discovered a flaw in the magazine removal action, which I have now filed away, from a step to a nice smooth bevel. Also this session I zeroed the red dot (and moved it forward to the front of the piccatinny rail) and laser at 20 metres which now makes sighting and instinctive shooting at steel plates a breeze.
Last edited by impala59 on Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:15 pm
I picked up another stray today and was hoping you gentlemen may help to identify it. It has been entered on my licence as " Italian Pump Action " which it is (one of the few marks is MADE IN ITALY) However I would like to know who made it. The proof marks state; 1987, provisional, final, nitro, 3" and my initial research has identified that all the working parts are identical to the (current model)Turkish made Citadel LE (Hatsan Escort in UK) The only difference that I could see is the profile of the rear end of the receiver, mine has that distinctive Italian shoulder.
It strips like an 870 but has an alloy receiver with the ejector mounted in the barrel extension. It seems solid and well made. I found one quote on the internet that the Hatsan guns were designed in Italy, but could find nothing else. Any Italian shotgun aficionados on line??
Here's Hoping !

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OK so here's what I have found out so far. It would appear that what I have is a Fabarm FP6
(fucili a pompa) which was also marketed as a Heckler and Koch FP6. the Stock and fore-end evolved into Black painted wood, then synthetics and the production moved to Turkey in the Hatsan factory. That's about all I can trawl up at the moment, unless you can add more?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:46 pm
Apologies gentlemen for seemingly hijacking this thread, but I just added another sleeping stray to my collection. Or am I building stock for a small business venture? I guess that when I start getting doubles or multiples I will be in the second category. I have approached the authorities regarding dealer licencing and once I have jumped through some hoops it should be OK. Anyway, the latest is a New Haven Model Mossberg 600AT with 28" polychoke barrel. Quite an early one as has the slide bar lock on the mag tube. The barrel needs an external re-finish but other than that its 100% after a deep clean and light lube.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:44 am
Thought I would post an update on the PM5 "work in progress" As previously stated I struggled a bit with the 'rock and lock' magazine system. Having bevelled the rear catch housing to enhance the release characteristics, I moved on to the catches themselves. Wishing to make the system fully ambidextrous, I attached a section of aluminium " u" channel to the magazine release lever and shaped it to enable either trigger finger (left or right hand) to simply push forward (on a serrated edge) whilst not changing hand position on the grip. This process speeds up the reload as the empty mag does not have to be rocked forward with the non-trigger hand pressing the mag release. The magazine now simply rolls out and drops away while at the same time, the new magazine can be grabbed for loading. Additionally, I extended the action release button to a central position within the mag release 'box' and just forward and below the trigger guard.
The next, and slightly more complex modification is to fabricate a replacement combined feed ramp and forward mag lock with a spring loaded catch and tapered mag well. This will enable a 'straight in' mag loading technique. I am practising my milling techniques to get this 100% right.
Incidentally, at no point am I drilling or altering the original firearm, all parts can be removed and the gun returned to stock configuration. Parts are either clamped in place or use existing fittings and fastenings, I do not wish to destroy the gun with my engineering!
My only problem at the moment is that I used a rubberised paint on my parts which while effective is not very pretty!

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Another experimental modification is the addition of a forward assist spring which is not so powerful as to make the rearward movement at all difficult, but it makes the return to battery slick, easy and fast
Last edited by impala59 on Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:49 am
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:52 am
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Whilst modifying I seem to keep coming up with all sorts of problems/solutions and ideas. I have fitted a picatinny rail to the fore-end and will experiment with a stubby vertical fore-grip with rubber rail covers over the exposed parts of the rail
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:50 pm
To continue the modifications, I needed to change the "rock and lock" magazine location system. I made, from a block of aluminium, a replacement feed ramp and forward mag lock. I replaced the solid lock with a spring steel plate, backed up with 2 stainless steel coil springs. At the top of the spring plate I epoxied a hardened roll-pin. Above this I epoxied a stainless steel stop plate to protect the alloy.
What this achieves is this, 1, the mag can be pushed straight in, latching solidly front and back. 2, the roll-pin allows the empty mag to roll out of engagement when the rear catch is disengaged with the mag release lever. Interestingly, the magazine seems to be located more solidly than stock with this modification, the front springs holding everything nice and secure.
I continued by making a simple tapered well arrangement with aluminium side plates fitted with brass tapered plates inside. this helps with mag location for 'first time' engagement and protects the original receiver opening from damage. I held this all in place with M5 hex bolts and ny-loc nuts (to pre-set tightness and prevent crushing the receiver and trigger group)
No drilling or cutting of the original firearm has been done, nor will it ever be done, returning to stock takes about 5 minutes.
It all works and while it is not too pretty, this is very much a hand made prototype to improve the gun for IPSC competition. There have been some unexpected bonuses too, the polished aluminium ramp feeds the cartridges much more smoothly than the stock plastic unit, also the secure mag location enhances feed reliability. After a period of further testing and development I hope to machine these parts from stainless steel for improved strength and reliability
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The main part, feed ramp and forward catch
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With the original feed ramp
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Simple mag well
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:57 pm
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The polished feed ramp in situ
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Solid mag retention

I hope you have found this interesting, any ideas for improvements gratefully received!
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