Ithaca Model 37 Troubleshooting

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:44 am
ravengunsmith wrote:That is interesting, what brand of shell is that?

Gamebore. Specifically, their High Bird 65mm, (UK)#6, 28g, fibre. (I use them because they allow me to load 8+1 instead of 7+1.)

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:45 am
Hi Mark
Exact same problem with Lylevale Express Pigeon Power Fibre wad #6, needed to rod the case out. I actually emailed the company, as I believed that it was a "hot" round and a quality control issue. No real response from them as yet
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:52 am
Gamebore is a pretty good brand. I do know they use Cheddite hulls which are a good quality hull.
Check them against a different box if you have a caliper, measure the brass diameter and the thickness of the rim of a couple. I wonder if you got a bad batch. I've shot Kents (which is Gamebore here)
without an issue in my citori and they ejected fine (that has a tight Chamber, too)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:29 am
i'm willing to bet the gun would handle Remington or Winchesters just fine.

I mention this because while sharpening my reloading skills I spent a great deal of time in a reloading forum.
what I took out of this is that even though the same gauge shot shells look alike there are differences in European and American shells
not only the brass hull shape and thickness ,but in the rim , the rim thickness ,shape ,etc

I think early ithacas were made to cycle American ammo
not by intent ,but just because they just never considered the European ammo market at the time
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:17 pm
That's very interesting, Twisted. and totally plausible they'd fire certain brands over others. Also remember those older Ithaca's were chambered for American paper shells as well.

I have a Benelli that I will not shoot steel rimmed shells through. The rim on a steel shell is much thinner. The recoil on the benelli is so fast that when the shell hits the ejector, the rim tears causing the mother of all jams with two shells nearly occupying one space.

I totally forgot about that and you jogged my memory. Some guns just don't like certain shells.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:21 am
So, last week-end we had a practice session and I had quite a bit of "trouble". At the end of the day, I'd dropped 14 rounds onto the ground and, being the fussy bug ^H^H person that I am, I inspect and clean 'em before I'll use them again.

*This* time, however, I found these three:

Image

So, not as simple as ammo that me gun doesn't like.

I think that this is all related to the "sloppiness" of my bolt carrier when the action is locked. I've given the slide stop out of my "normal" (most-used) M37 to a mate to try to extend the end because it's *very* worn. Even so, using the trigger mechanism out of my "good" M37, there's a fair bit of movement when the action is locked and the forend is pushed backwards and forwards. (I'll try to take a copy of photos the next time I shoot.)

Thing is, I've never *seen* a new M37 to see what *they're* like re "sloppiness".

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. I think that I'll use my Chiappa, this week-end...
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:16 am
raven will know better ,
but that looks like a weak mainspring.
ammo type should not effect that
as far as ammo dumping you got it with a worn shell stop.
if you sense play in the lock up look at the slide stop.
I've had to replace them before when I had excess play.the area is very small where it contacts the slide and its a high wear area


I feel for you guys across the pond ,the parts were talking about are common and cheap here.
I have everything listed above in my spare parts box.

I also get the feeling your m37s are shot a whole bunch more then your avg m37 in the states.
over here m37s aren't considered range guns ,they are guns that get kept in a closet till small game season ,and put back after it closes
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:55 am
twistedoak wrote:that looks like a weak mainspring.

All of the *other* fired shells that I've looked at seem to have been well hit.
ammo type should not effect that

Indeed.
as far as ammo dumping you got it with a worn shell stop.

That's one part that I have *not* bought. (After the last fiasco, I'm not that keen to order more parts. However, I have *not* spoken to Zak about them.)

As I say, I've never seen a new Ithaca - it could be that all the Ithacas that I've seen are well-worn. What I'd *really* like to be able to buy is a gun indentical to what I've got but *new*...

Here's a question for the (Ithaca) Collective: is there a documented "tuning" procedure for the shell stops? In other words, given the dearth of Ithaca knowledge over this side of The Pond, what should I do to try to fix them?
if you sense play in the lock up look at the slide stop.
I've had to replace them before when I had excess play.the area is very small where it contacts the slide and its a high wear area

That's the area that I suspect, of course. And I certainly agree about the wear - the chap I've given it to is going to weld a little onto the end and then I'm going to file it back into shape. (I'm doing this because the new slide stop that I bought won't fit without fettling, so I might as well try fixing the old stop before hacking away at the new one.)

I feel for you guys across the pond ,the parts were talking about are common and cheap here.
I have everything listed above in my spare parts box.

Yeah, I should've been born American. :)

I also get the feeling your m37s are shot a whole bunch more then your avg m37 in the states.
over here m37s aren't considered range guns ,they are guns that get kept in a closet till small game season ,and put back after it closes

Well, "yes".

A requirement of our club is that new members take and pass a UKPSA-run safety course. It's a two-day affair and, at the end of the second day, they put together a really loooong stage - maybe forty steels to be shot. When *I* took this course, after that last stage, the outside of my M37's (Parkerized) barrel was smoking from end to end and thirty-years-worth of accumulated crud liquified and ran out from under rear sight. Such fun... :)

Regards,

Mark.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:01 pm
the shell stops do wear also ,on the end where they touch the shell to hold it in.
the most common cause for shell stop problems is the little spring.
now if your spring is good and the wear is minimal and the gun is still dropping shells some people have cured it by ever slightly bending the shell stop arm
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:42 pm
twistedoak wrote:the shell stops do wear also ,on the end where they touch the shell to hold it in.

I'll have to take a close look at the shell stops; I have to admit that I've not really paid them much attention.
the most common cause for shell stop problems is the little spring.

A couple of years ago, I needed some parts (extractors, et al) and so I replaced the gun's spring shell stop spring as well.
now if your spring is good and the wear is minimal and the gun is still dropping shells some people have cured it by ever slightly bending the shell stop arm

Hmmm. Well, I've leave that option until the slide stop fix (read "bodge") has been attempted.

These problems are a real shame since, when the gun's "on song", it works very well indeed.

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. Thanks for your help.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:11 pm
twistedoak wrote:raven will know better ,
but that looks like a weak mainspring.
ammo type should not effect that
as far as ammo dumping you got it with a worn shell stop.
if you sense play in the lock up look at the slide stop.
I've had to replace them before when I had excess play.the area is very small where it contacts the slide and its a high wear area


I feel for you guys across the pond ,the parts were talking about are common and cheap here.
I have everything listed above in my spare parts box.

I also get the feeling your m37s are shot a whole bunch more then your avg m37 in the states.
over here m37s aren't considered range guns ,they are guns that get kept in a closet till small game season ,and put back after it closes



Twisted, I think you nailed it. The only other problem to a light strike is that it could be a broken spring. A broken coil spring can work fine some times and then the two pieces can "slip" and you have light strike.

If the bolt was really loose and it turned out to be a headspace issue, you would know it.

That's about all I can add to this conversation
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:27 pm
ravengunsmith wrote: I've shot Kents (which is Gamebore here)
without an issue in my citori and they ejected fine (that has a tight Chamber, too)


Interestingly, I believe that the 37 has a "loose" chamber, certainly when compared to my BPS and I thought that the "low head",( under 10mm) was allowing over expansion of the hull which was in turn grabbing the chamber walls. High metal (16mm +) seems to alleviate the problem
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:04 pm
Mine are quite tight. all of them hate reloads.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 am
Well gentlemen to revisit the 'fail to extract' issue I am afraid that I have some more questions to put to you.
During a particularly long IPSC competition stage this last weekend I experienced the mother of all fails to extract. I was unable to finish the stage, so I made the gun safe and let it cool. when I eventually managed to remove the offending case I decided to keep it for later examination (photographs). I discovered that the magazine cap was a little loose despite being tightened at the start of the stage. This seems to be a recurring issue and, I believe, is central to the problem.
Upon examination, I saw that the case had bulged slightly, forward of the rim, had flowed into the extractor cut outs and had deformed behind the rim quite substantially. This seemed like a headspace issue, with the barrel loosening within the interrupted threads. I decided to research a little further as I had formed half a plan to fit a grub screw into the side of the mag cap to lock it in place. Checking the exploded views of the '37 from various sources, I was surprised to see the "mag nut pin" and its associated screw and spring. This is something that to me was hidden in plain sight, as I have always *assumed* that the ball detent was what prevented the mag cap from loosening. (to quote Jack Reacher, to assume makes an ass of u and me!) I would be grateful if anyone could shed some light on the fitting of these parts as my '65 does not have them, nor any place to fit them.
My research eventually found a Kings Ferry field maintenance manual which showed a different approach to the loosening mag cap.
In it, during assembly, it shows the yoke being hit by a hammer and wooden drift to contact the rear edge of the mag cap and so fix it in place prior to tightening the yoke screw. Is this common practice? It is contradictory to all other model 37 manuals that I have seen, which state "to dis-assemble screw the mag nut clockwise until it clears the barrel lug, then rotate the barrel" No mention of removing the yoke screw and drifting the yoke back first.
my '65 has wear marks from the yoke screw and yoke itself from where it has always been positioned, about 1/8" behind the mag cap when cap is locked into the barrel lug. I thought that maybe my ball detent was weak, but, research showed me that some mag caps are available without the dimples for the ball to engage. I thought that I knew '37s, it would seem not and I now seek further education from you all! Please note I am aware of the need to replace my yoke screw, it was 'wrong screwdriver' damaged before my ownership!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:20 am
what is the year again?
the loosening at the barrel lug may or may not have nothing to do with the stuck shell.
I say this because in theory the barrel threads are what set and lock in the headspace ,not the tightness of the mag nut.
excessive wear can cause headspace issues,however a misaligned yoke can also bind a shell in the chamber.
much like you describe

the mag nuts went though several variations mostly driven to reduce cost .
the biggest variation was the early pin type,i remember reading that one of the reasons they were dropped is because there were cases of people over tightening them.
in general use they all work fine.

the practice of pinning the mag nut with the yoke was adopted for high use guns by law enforcement., to prevent barrel removal
military guns required a fixed non removable barrel(after WWII)
the reasoning behind fixing the barrel is unrelated to the ability to fire the gun,but more toward swinging it like a bat or attaching a bayonet
how many shots did you fire?
I don't pin the nut on any of my hunting guns ,but if your sending a few hundred down range at a go ,i'd consider pinning it with the yoke.
i'd also check the tightness of the stock bolt often.

as far as the stuck shell ,
my first impression is to decide if the shell itself could be the oddball and a bad one .
then as I said above i'd check to see if the yoke was aligned properly
lastly i'd wonder if the gun was locked up completely when the shell was fired
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 2:01 pm
Hi Twisted,
My '37 is a 1965 model, field barrel featherlight. I believe that the loosening of the mag nut permitted the barrel to begin partial rotation. On the course of fire that I was shooting, I had fired about 20 shots rapid before the fail. During my reloads, the heat, even through the heatshield, was quite intense. With my speedloading technique, the gun is spun over rapidly and shooting continues after just a few seconds (some shooters keep the gun in the shoulder and load right way up)
The yoke on this gun was perfectly aligned, my barrel will not rotate if the yoke is mis-aligned (the tolerances are that tight)
My question about pinning the mag nut with the yoke arose after finding an Ithaca Gun Co. manual (Kings Ferry) that I had not seen before. It was neither military or law enforcement that I could make out, and included the model 87
I am fairly confident about the ammunition and the lock up. Also, the stock bolt on this gun is modified with a locking nut.
Thanks for your input and information

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:34 pm
The old style magazine nut you refer to was used from 1937 and phased out going into 1955. As stated before it was for the most part a cost cutting measure. A number of other short cuts took place that year including no checkering on field grade stocks, and simpler machining on the top of the receiver. I agree with Twisted Oak on the barrel line up. I have a 37 that the shells would bulge in the extractor cut outs and become firmly lodged in the barrel. The barrel would not bind in the yoke when installed or removed. I put the barrel on another 37 and it shot fine. I put the barrel from the second gun on the problem gun and had the same problem leading me to believe that the cut outs where not aligned with the extractors. After adjusting the yoke a number of times followed by test firing I was finally able to get things lined up just right and the gun will work with any barrel. As for the yoke assembly procedure you mention I have also heard of it but only for law enforcement use.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:44 pm
This is very strange ,Gentlemen. Cutcher, you described my jammed case perfectly, but in my case it only happened when the gun was hot and the mag nut loose. I guess if the barrel moved marginally so that the extractors did not quite line up then we are approaching the cause. Prior to this jam the gun had fired about 100 rounds perfectly that morning, and the last jam before that was probably 400 rounds ago. I have been tightening the mag nut prior to shooting (it was always a little loose) So maybe the yoke pushed forward to the mag nut will cure the problem? I can but try.
I still don't understand why the ITHACA Kings Ferry NY maintenance manual is quite specific about this procedure, and yet you Gentlemen refer to it as military or LE. I tried to load up the manual for you to see but the site will not accept PDF files. There is reference in the preface about 1993 production guns and the sling stud, but that is the only date reference in the manual
Thanks as always for your time and patience with a puzzled Brit!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:03 pm
Cutcher and twisted are both spot on. They know as much as anyone outside the factory.

Remember, it only take a few thou in any one place to get the entire firing/extraction mechanism to malfunction. If the yoke is too loose and the barrel heats up, that could be all it takes to cause that mechanism to foul. Especially the yoke. When I sold new Ithaca's I found out that shipping often caused the yoke to misalign and require a tune up. (UPS and FedEx are so gentle) I'd give you a torque spec for that screw but I have learned that every gun is a little different and to trust your eyes and how the barrel attaches and detaches.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:40 pm
As an update, the '65 has not had a jam since my last post and the '71 likewise. The '65 mag nut is locked into place with the yoke as per the KF manual but only when I have absolutely got the slot in the roof of the receiver perfectly in line with the top extractor cut out, problem gone!
The '71 did not have a yoke and the mag tube is non standard. I got a friend to pick me up a yoke when he was stateside. Of course it did not fit and needed to be packed out. I now position this yoke against the heat shield front mount as there, it holds everything solid. Again, nothing is locked up until the extractor slot and receiver slot are perfectly aligned. It seems to me that with just a little assembly care (and the advice of my peers across the pond!) the problems with my favourite shotguns have gone away. Thank you gentlemen!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:25 am
Thanks for the update...glad it worked out for you.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:24 pm
For the interest of readers of this thread I have attached some screen shots of the KF manual discussed previously, the front page for reference and fig. 16, re-assembly of the yoke
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:16 am
Thanks..............
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:21 am
Whilst browsing the current gun company catalogue (and hoping for a UK importer to bring some in!) I couldn't help but notice that new guns seem to have the mag nut pinned by the yoke, perhaps a recommendation now?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:14 pm
my guess is it has more to do with the new choke tube barrels.
kind of like with military guns ,with tubes theres no need to remove a barrel unless your cleaning.
with older fixed choke guns, many owners had 2 or 3 barrels of different chokes depending on what they were hunting .
pinning the yoke would be pita for every barrel change
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